Do you feel as if life is passing you by as you rush through one day after another, missing the glimmers that make it worthwhile? I’ve found that many people feel as if they are barely living – they wake up, work, eat, and sleep – a hum-drum cycle that is repeated joylessly day after day. And, if you add pressure, stress, anxiety–and more stress – into the mix, life can feel purposeless and overwhelming. But hope is on the way! Research shows that you CAN create new, uplifting cycles that foster well-being simply by noticing life’s little joys.

Join me and renowned mental health expert Deb Dana for a deep dive into the gentle, life-changing power of glimmers. Topics discussed include neurobiology, co-regulation, trauma, complex trauma, dysregulation, regulation, sympathetic nervous system, parasympathetic nervous system, relationships, triggers, glimmers, overwhelm, anxiety, stress, hope, Polyvagal Theory, Stephen Porges, autonomic nervous system, patterns of protection, fight-flight response, safety, connection, neuroception, and healing.

Please note that this episode contains sensitive trauma-related material; listener discretion is advised.

Emergency Assistance Note: If you or someone you know needs immediate support, please call your emergency services. In the US, 24/7 help is available by calling “911” or “988” (Suicide and Crisis Hotline). Support/informational links are in the show notes.

 

Books by Dr. Carla Manly:

Date Smart: Transform Your Relationships and Love Fearlessly

Joy From Fear: Create the Life of Your Dreams by Making Fear Your Friend

Aging Joyfully: A Woman’s Guide to Optimal Health, Relationships, and Fulfillment for Her 50s and Beyond

The Joy of Imperfect Love: The Art of Creating Healthy, Securely Attached Relationships

 

Connect with Dr. Carla Manly:

Website: https://www.drcarlamanly.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drcarlamanly/

Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/drcarlamanly/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drcarlamanly

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carla-marie-manly-8682362b/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@dr.carlamariemanly8543

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dr_carla_manly

 

Book by Deb Dana:

Glimmers Journal: Reflect on the Small Moments That Bring You Joy, Safety, and Connection

 

Connect with Deb Dana:

Website: https://www.rhythmofregulation.com/

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Glimmers, Triggers, and Falling in Love with Life! Featuring Renowned Expert Deb Dana

Using Glimmers to Regulate Your Nervous System and Discover True Joy!

Do you feel that your life is passing you by as you rush through one day after another? I found that many people feel as if they are barely living. They wake up, work, eat, and sleep. It’s a humdrum cycle that is repeated joylessly day after day. If you add pressure, stress, anxiety, and more stress into the mix, life can feel purposeless and overwhelming, but hope is on the way. Research shows that you can create new uplifting cycles that foster well-being simply by noticing life’s little joys. Join me and mental health expert, Deb Dana, Licensed Clinical Social Worker, for a deep dive into the gentle power of glimmers.

We’ll focus on this listener’s real-life question. “My latest review at work has left me feeling down and more anxious than ever. My boss says I’m not doing enough, even though I barely have a life outside work. I’m not in a relationship and have few friends because I have social anxiety. I’m in a bad loop and cannot get out. Do you have any ideas for me?” With that question as the focus of our episode, I’m Dr. Carla Marie Manly, and this is Imperfect Love.

 

I am joined by a very wonderful guest, Deb Dana, LCSW, licensed clinical social worker, who will be sharing her expertise on glimmers, the polyvagal theory, internal family systems, and so much more. Deb is a consultant, an author, a psychotherapist, and the individual who coined the term that may be new to you, Glimmers. Welcome to the show, Deb. It is such a joy to have you with us.

It is fun to be here. I think we’re going to have a lovely conversation. I’m looking forward to it.

Rediscovering Joy, Purpose, and Freedom in Life

Me too. Thank you for gracing us with your presence. Before we get to the heart of our topic, would you tell a little bit about what makes you you?

What makes me me? That’s such a fun question to think about what makes me me? The thing that I love about my life at this moment is I’m a grandma. I have these great-grandkids that hang around and come in and out of my daily world. It brings great joy to my life so that I’m not just working. If you’d asked me this question five years ago, what makes me me, it would be very different. I was working all the time and caring for my husband. The world felt like it was closing in on me.

I relate to the reader’s question about feeling purposeless and joyless. It’s been lovely to find a way through that. Now what makes me me is I love the words joy and purpose. I’ve rediscovered tiny moments of joy. I’m beginning to frame my purpose differently. It’s a stage of life for me too. I’ll be 72 this year and so it’s a phase of life that is what do I want to do, what do I not want to do? I feel more freedom in making those decisions.

I suppose what makes me me is all of that being able to say yes or no, and not feel so weighed down by all the daily things that make up a life. When you are in that stage of building, it feels very different than the stage I’m in right now. I feel like I’m in the stage of beginning to put out there into the world what I want and let go of what I don’t. A long roundabout way of exploring what makes me me, but I think all of that is it.

Thank you for sharing that, and it’s so interesting. As a clinician myself, I often see images and feel things in my body as someone is talking. As you were talking, I was feeling this oppressiveness. You were describing your prior five years in this darkness and oppressiveness, and then this lightness of being, beautiful lightness, and freedom like a flower coming out of the ground and saying, “Here I am, I’m shining.”

I like that. Yes, here I am. It’s interesting to reach that place to be able to feel okay to say, “Here I am.” That’s part of all this work that I’ve done, all this nervous system experience and bringing it to life in these ways. I’m at a point now where I can say “Here I am” without feeling I need to do any more than that. I liked it when you said here I am. That’s it. Here I am.

I would be remiss if I didn’t say we have a world-renowned expert with us. As demure as you are about it, as humble as you are about it, you have played a seminal role in Polyvagal theory, of course in glimmers, which is not to be underestimated. If you are not looking at this on YouTube, I’m holding up for a minute because I’m going to do it later again. Deb Dana’s book is called The Glimmers Journal. Talk about the lightness of being. This book, it’s beautiful. It’s beautiful to touch, beautiful to hold. The cover sparkles with stars in the sky. I love it. You are bringing us so much richness. Behind that lovely, humble grandma facade is a wealth of life’s work and experience.

Thank you.

Understanding the Polyvagal Theory

Before we talk about the listener’s question, for someone who doesn’t know what we’re talking about when we say Polyvagal theory, could you explain that to us, please?

Polyvagal theory was developed by my dear friend and colleague, Stephen Porges, who brilliantly brought the nervous system to life in a new way. He described how the nervous system functions to keep us safe. The nervous system’s job is moment to moment to take action to make sure we’re surviving. Polyvagal theory, we talk about three principles that are important to know. A little bit of different vocabulary, so bear with me, but the first principle is neuroception. That’s a word that Steve coined because the nervous system doesn’t use the thinking power of the brain. It’s beneath the brain.

 

There wasn’t a word that could describe how the nervous system took in information. He created the word neuroception. I think it’s a beautiful word. I love to say it. It brings to life what it is. It’s the nervous system’s way of perception. Neuroception is always listening through three pathways. It’s listening inside your body. At this moment, if everybody stops and takes the temperature of your body, that’s neuroception, feeling your digestion, your heart, your lungs, your breath, your aches, your pains, your places of openness and warmth. That’s your nervous system checking it out.

The second is environmental. The same we can do is take a scan of the environment you’re in. I’m looking at your environment and your environment. It sends me a lot of cues of safety. It feels very welcoming. My neuroception is one of, “I like that. That feels safe.” The third pathway is the between, but from a nervous system to a nervous system. Your nervous system and mine are getting to know each other. We don’t know each other and yet we’re getting all these cues.

I’ll speak for my nervous system. Your system feels very safe and as if I could trust it. That lets me lean in and think, “We’re going to have a lovely conversation.” There are a lot of welcomes coming from neuroception to me at this moment. That can be the case or it can be the case that we’re getting warnings. When we get warnings, we then move back a bit. The first principle, neuroception, then takes us to the second principle, which is the hierarchy. This is where we encounter glimmers and survival states.

The hierarchy that Steve identified is three states that we travel through in a predictable order. That makes it wonderful for the practice of therapy, knowing where clients are and how to help them come back to safety and connection, but it’s also great for curious humans. As I move through my day, I get to know, “I’m feeling neuroception of safety. I’m feeling anchored in regulation,” or “Now I’m feeling a bit uneasy,” and I’m moving out of regulation into dysregulation.

We have two survival states. We have the sympathetic fight and flight that most people recognize. Most people know fight and flight is that anger, frustration, or anxiety panic pathway. That’s your nervous system saying, “It feels dangerous. I’m going to move you into fight and flight so that you can survive.”

The other survival state that Steve brilliantly discovered and described for us is the shutdown, collapse, disconnect pathway. We call it dorsal vagal for people who the scientific term. We can also call it the pathway of shutdown collapse, which is the opposite of the sympathetic fight and flight. In sympathetic, we’re flooded with energy. We cannot sit still and have to move. We are always looking around hypervigilant, flood of energy, chaotic, and disorganized. When those collapse, all of that goes away. All the energy drains from your system and then you’re left with this give up, hopeless, why bother, despair.

Even though it’s hard to think of, this again is your nervous system protecting you and keeping you safe. In that place of collapse, the nervous system thinks it would be too dangerous to be big and to be out there in fight and flight, “I’m taking you to disappear and collapse. You can fly under the radar, and then you can live to come back to life another day.”

There’s always an adaptive reason that we move into these survival states. That takes us to the top of the hierarchy when we are feeling safe enough and organized enough when our neuroception brings us cues of welcome. We come to the top of the hierarchy and that’s the ventral vagal. I often call it the land of okayness. It can be a place where we feel bliss or zen or at ease and calm, but it also can be a place where we feel happy, joyful, passionate, playful, and all of these energized things.

Glimmers are the easily reached-for and easily recognized moments of feeling that life is okay. Share on X

It’s a place where life is okay enough and safe enough. This is the place where glimmers live. Glimmers live in this state of safety and connection. As we move into talking about them, glimmers are easy to reach for. It’s easy to recognize moments of ventral, moments of feeling life is okay, “I’m okay, I’m safe in this moment.”

The third organizing principle, I don’t want to forget it and I could. I shouldn’t, but I could. It is co-regulation. We could have started with that because we’re doing it together right now. Co-regulation is a biological need of our nervous system. We need to have others safe in our lives, first of all, to survive when we’re born. We cannot survive without other humans. To thrive through the fullness of our lives, we need other people. Maybe I only need 1 or 2. Maybe I need 8 or 9. It depends on my system, but we need others to be in that place of connection, reciprocity, and co-regulation.

Thank you for that beautiful outline of a very complex theory. It’s very complex, yet if we go inside, we can see that it is about being safe. It’s what our system does and what our system needs to do to feel safe. Sadly, for people who have had trauma in their lives, even if the present is safe, they often believe it’s not safe because they’re being informed by a body, mind, and spirit that remember and never worked through the trauma.

This is why if you had trauma as a child, if you had parents who were an aggressive and alcoholic parent, or anything like that, and there’s not anything identifiable in your current world, or you find yourself being hyper-vigilant and hyper-reactive, even when people are generally safe around you. When someone is safe and you perceive them as threatening, even when they’re not being threatening, then we know that that’s your system.

 

That’s a familiar cue from the past in some way that’s come alive in the present. You may be perfectly safe, but you may move in a certain way. That is a familiar reminder from the past. You may use a word, you may wear a collar, or you may have something in your environment. That’s the way the nervous system is always on guard trying to keep us safe. It can make no sense whatsoever to our brains, but on a nervous system level, it makes perfect sense.

That’s where that gift of self-understanding and self-compassion comes in. I’m working with couples. One will be saying, “He said this,” whatever it is, “She said this.” I’m observing and seeing that the person’s in a fairly neutral state, and yet their brain and body are being informed from something in the past. It could be a parent, it could be a former relationship. They’re saying, “But it’s you.” The person is saying, “But I didn’t do anything.” Sometimes that is true. The work is to not judge it but to get to the roots of it.

It’s that beautiful experience of, “Can I be curious?” We can only be curious if we have some of that regulating ventral energy active and alive in our system. We call that an emergent property. It is a quality of being in that place of ventral or having enough ventral available so that I can be curious. When I am in survival, either sympathetic or dorsal, fight, flight, or collapse, I am biologically unable to be curious. It’s not that I don’t want to be, but I’m biologically unable. It does not go with survival.

For our audience, when Deb is explaining this, you may have also heard of these concepts of fight, flight, freeze, and appease. That freeze-appease, we’ve seen animals. A scared dog, a scared puppy dog, and some animal go into a corner, and either go with their belly up like, “Please don’t hurt me,” or freeze and play possum, ”I’m dead, don’t bother me, it’s okay.” We see this in the animal kingdom frequently and we too are animals. We have the same drive inside all intended to keep us alive even if they don’t necessarily work for our benefit.

I like to think the very first time that survival state came alive, it was necessary. Maybe now, all these years later, and I will admit as every human, I still end up in messy survival states when it’s not necessary because my nervous system remembers a cue from the past and there I go. I’m much better now at recognizing and going, “Wait a minute.” I can ask a discernment question. The discernment question that I ask and I invite people to ask when you can recognize is, “In this moment, in this place with the people I’m around, if I’m around people, is this response needed?” That’s the discernment question. Not is it appropriate because that’s not a nervous system experience, but is it needed? Oftentimes the answer I get is, “That intensity of response is not needed in this moment.”

Beautifully said and so humble, and I agree with you. There are times in all of us, especially anyone who’s had a modicum of trauma, much less intense trauma. There are times you catch yourself reacting and your heart’s beating and you’re anxious, or you feel yourself getting brewing for a fight and wait a minute, as you said, is that necessary now? That’s the gift of curiosity.

Navigating Work and Social Anxiety

Being able to be curious about yourself. Is this helping me now? It may have helped me when I was 5 or 15 or 20. Is it helping me now? I’m curious, in general. Thank you for all of this beautiful background information. We look at the listener’s question and I too feel for this individual who I can only imagine giving everything you have to work and having the boss give you a bad review. Feeling as though you’re giving it everything. You’re funneling all this energy into what you think is a safe place, your work, and being told you’re not giving enough.

On the other side, it seems like there are at least two pieces here where the individual is saying, “I have social anxiety, I don’t have friends.” I’m leaning into the question, I’m doing some interpretation, but it’s almost as if I’m giving so much because I don’t have anything else and now I’m being told that everything I’m giving is not good enough and I was anxious before, and now I’m super anxious because what’s wrong with me?

I can feel for that person too. That anxiety is driven by the sympathetic need. There’s a drivenness in back of that energy, have to, should. Those are sympathetic experiences. What often happens is we’re in that place of have to, should, and we’re pushed and pushed, where we’re always seeking, but we never can be satisfied. Oftentimes what happens is we then move into that dorsal collapse despair because the system can only stay in that driven anxious place so long, and then it takes a break, so to speak.

Collapse rescues you from anxiety. It doesn’t nourish you in any way, but it gets you out of that overwhelming anxiety, but then you’re in despair, hopeless collapse. That cycle is something that we see often. It’s not an uncommon cycle for humans to begin. Maybe the listener who sent in the question might feel not so alone. It’s not an unusual cycle, painful, and you suffer in it, but it’s not unusual to be in that. Sometimes it helps to know, “I am one of many in this experience, it’s not just me.” We’ll add that in.

The more moments we can dip into safety, connection, and regulation, the more we can find different options, hear different stories, and feel as though you can do things differently. Share on X

It’s interesting because when we’re working with clients, we often say, “I cannot change what happened to you. I cannot change what is happening to you but I can help you have a different relationship with it.” That’s the gift of therapy. That is the gift of the nervous system. I can help you find moments of safety, connection, and regulation. The more moments we can dip into that, the more you’re going to find options. You’re going to hear different stories. You’re going to feel as though you can do things differently.

When you’re stuck in anxiety and despair, you don’t have access to options or hear different stories or possibilities. You are simply stuck in the survival mode. One of the ways we think about helping people is by saying, “Can we find those tiny moments of okayness?” That’s where glimmers came from. In my work with complex trauma survivors. We spend so much time working with what we call triggers. What are the things that dysregulate you that feel dangerous to you?

 

The nervous system tells us very clearly that we need to reduce and resolve those things, but we also have to actively experience moments of okayness for change to happen. You cannot simply focus on changing the work, changing the home, changing those things. You also have to actively experience this ventral state. That’s where glimmers first came from years ago with my clients. What’s a word that felt within reach that didn’t feel so big that they would say, “I can never do that?”

That’s a common response when we’re feeling stuck in survival. We cannot possibly do any of those other things. What was a word? I tried glimmers because glimmers feel like what it is. A tiny thing that has a bit of a sparkle and brings a tiny moment of feeling like I’m not stuck in the suffering. My clients liked the word and we started exploring how you find a glimmer in a trauma-saturated environment. That’s where we started.

The Power of Glimmers: Finding Hope in Everyday Moments

Your term glimmers, I love it. It has its roots in your work with complex trauma. We can see that it certainly helps somebody who’s mired in trauma, depression, and anxiety. As people have embraced the term, it’s very clear that it helps everyday life and pause to notice a glimmering state, either out loud or to the self. This is a glimmer. I see a hummingbird.

I watched this beautiful mother and child hug, glimmer. My partner came home and smiled, glimmer. I hugged my puppy dog, glimmer. I tasted something I made and it tasted so good, glimmer. I have this familiar taste in my mouth. Every time I make my mom’s special sauce recipe, glimmer. If we slow things down, we can see that glimmers are there for all of us.

Glimmers are all around us. As we move into thinking about how we find glimmers and look for glimmers, we also want to recognize that finding glimmers is not a form of toxic positivity, because that’s going around in our world. It’s like don’t focus on the bad things. Just look for the good and everything will be fine. We want to make sure we remember that is not a glimmer practice. Glimmers are a way that we can recognize that our nervous system is exquisitely able to hold the suffering and see the glimmers.

The more we find glimmers, the more capacity we have to work with the suffering. That’s the benefit for every human in looking for glimmers. It gives you more capacity to be with the suffering, the hard things, the challenges, and navigate the world in a different way. I wanted to say that so that we remember that.

Thank you for differentiating because, and adding to your thoughts on toxic positivity, I see toxic positivity as also putting on this mask with a smiley face that you feel stuck behind this mask of artificiality. Whereas if you’re sad and you’re out on a walk and you’re sad or you’re even crying, I think of when my mom died and I was crying everywhere. I could still see and witness a rose. I’m like, “That reminds me of mama.”

I could still see somebody that I love with a smile and go, “Thank you for the smile.” I could still receive a hug and feel that warmth. Some people are so deep in the depths of despair that they feel like they’re betraying someone or even themselves by feeling a glimmer. I believe that’s why there’s the old phrase glimmer of hope because glimmers do give us hope. They are those little resets that remind us life is worth living. Even if your boss was cruel, and didn’t see how much you give, there are glimmers around you.

I’m speaking now to the listener’s question. Maybe this individual doesn’t have friends or family reflecting and giving them things to feel positive about. Yet, in this person’s life, there are ways to create glimmers. I also like how you said, because this individual said they barely have friends or don’t have friends or many friends because of social anxiety. I often think that sometimes when we have this idea, and you said it so beautifully, some people only need 1 or 2 friends. Some feel incomplete unless they have a list of 20 friends or 30 friends.

I don’t have a high capacity to maintain a lot of friends. Research shows that most of us can maintain about five relationships at a time. We can see that this person may also be feeling somewhat stuck and hurting because something in them might be saying you should have all these friends and you should be going out and doing all of these social things. As you wisely said, anytime we hear that should voice, we are triggering that sympathetic nervous system that’s saying, “You’re doing something wrong, you better be ready to fight or flee.”

I think part of this work and befriending your nervous system is to know that there’s no one way. There’s no right or wrong way. There’s the way that your nervous system works for you. I like remembering that. There’s the way of my nervous system. I think oftentimes, we get messages from out there that say, “You should do this, you shouldn’t do that, or you need this or not that.”

If you run that through your nervous system and say, “How does your nervous system respond?” Like you, my nervous system says, “You have 10 friends. Nope, that’s overwhelming. Give me 2 or 3 who I can count on and my nervous system feels nourished.” The question is what nourishes your nervous system?

Every nervous system will find the glimmers that feel nourishing to it. Share on X

Even with glimmers, there is not a glimmer that nourishes every nervous system. Every nervous system is going to find the glimmers that feel nourishing to it. Nature’s fairly predictably bringing of glimmers, but what nature, what place in nature? I’m an ocean person, so I know the ocean’s going to bring me glimmers. Other people are not ocean at all. They’re desert people. It’s interesting to know that each nervous system is going to find glimmers in different places.

 

 

The Importance of Nourishing Your Soul

Going back to your book. I too am an ocean person but I’ll take river, I’ll take desert, I’ll take mountains, just give me nature, please. I want to pause if you don’t mind. These are two bits from Deb’s book so that you can get a better idea of what we’re talking about. It’s a journal and she offers prompts and there are two. They’re all poignant but two that especially spoke to me.

One is, “Touch the earth. Directly connecting to the earth sometimes called earthing or grounding helps regulate our physiology. We benefit from connection to the earth’s natural electric charge. Walk barefoot, dig in the dirt. Put your hands in the sand, touch the grass, unearth your glimmers.” There’s plenty of space to write. That speaks to what you said, For some of us, it’s going out and gardening. For me, gardening is like a dream. For someone else, it’s like, “No, I don’t want to do that, it’s messy.”

You may prefer to water a potted plant, hug a tree, or look at nature pictures in a clean environment. Whatever it might be, it’s all unique. It feels nourishing. I’m leaning into your word nourishing because it is a beautiful way of putting it. What nourishes one person may not nourish another. When we get away from I should or I need to be nourished by this or that. No, what nourishes you? We’re not talking boxes of cookies here. We’re talking about things that feel nourishing to your soul.

It’s interesting, because as you talk about gardening, and digging in the dirt. I can feel it come alive in me. It might not be my preferred way to find a glimmer, but my system can feel the joy that you have and it comes alive in me. That’s the joy of sharing glimmers, finding glimmer buddies, creating glimmer groups, or even posting a glimmer. People post their glimmers all the time. People email me their glimmers. I feel my system come alive reading them. That’s a nervous system experience. That’s what we know happens when I’m connected. It’s that co-regulation when I’m connected to your ventral experience. My system can tend to join you in that and benefits my system as well.

It can work in the other direction. Sometimes if I’m working with a client, and they’re feeling sad, that sadness I can feel it literally in my body in my soul. You all have been I would imagine, and a party or an environment where somebody comes in, and they’re either supremely happy, and we catch that energy, or they’re supremely angry, and we feel that. I think that’s important to realize that glimmers can be shared. I also thought as you were talking, because we paused for a minute on the gardening, I think glimmers shift. I think that there are times that sometimes I’m super excited to go out and garden. Other times I’m like, “Not today.”

Using Past Glimmers for Healing and Regulation

There could be a temptation to say, “What’s wrong with me? I usually like to garden.” I know when I’m ready to go out and walk in the rain because I love being in the rain, walking in the rain. My husband will be, “Don’t do that. You’ll catch a cold.” I’m like, “No, it feels good to me.” Getting him to walk in the rain with me, it’s not a glimmer for him. We all have. I’d like to do one more bit from your book if you don’t mind.

Sure, yeah.

It’s another one. This one’s special because it invites us to turn to our past. We often look at the past through a lens of regret or sorrow, or I should have, or they should have. Deb invites us to look to the past for glimmers. Here’s an excerpt from her journal book, “Relive and Remember. Reminiscing is a pathway to regulation. When we remember moments that were glimmer-filled, we return to them and feel them come alive again. Create a photo collage of people who bring you joy. Share a memory with a friend. Return to a special place. Start a family and friends memory book. Collect your glimmer memories.”

I thought that was so special because for many people, especially if there’s trauma in the past or relational issues, there’s a tendency to do anything but look at the glimmers. We tend to go through “This was wrong. This was bad.” If we pause and say, “My dad sang me songs. I remember one time my mom cuddled me.” Even if there’s only one time. “I remember making ice cream. I remember holding hands with my sister.” Anything like that. We’re not saying don’t address the trauma, don’t address the pain, but we are saying balance. If there are glimmers that you can lean into, whether from yesterday, 5 years ago, or 20 years ago, find them and nourish your nervous system with those.

I love what you’re saying. It’s also this scientific foundation that tells us that the nervous system can do that at both ends. When I talk to my clients, I say, “Your biology is set up to do this beautifully on both ends.” Somehow it became okay. They’d have a tiny sliver of a glimmer of a beautiful memory because what the nervous system uses to create change are micro-moments.

It’s not these great big moments that happen that we have to stay anchored in for a long time to shape new patterns of connection. It’s tiny moments, it’s micro-moments. I often ask people, “If it’s micro-moments that will create the change you’re looking for, how does that change how you’re living your life? How does that change what you’re doing knowing that it’s the micro-moments that are important?”

I think that’s so special and so important and taking it to our listener’s question, when they’re struggling with this issue at work, how would you ask them or what would you talk to them about?

It’s interesting because this listener sounds overwhelmed. Her system feels overwhelmed. When our system is overwhelmed, all of that information gets fed up to our brain, and our brain has to make up a story to make some sense of what’s going on in the nervous system. The stories that are going to emerge are stories of being helpless or stuck or trapped or not appreciated, all of these things because those are the only stories that the brain can have access to when we’re in survival.

I suppose part of what I would do would be to explore with this listener, are there any tiny moments that feel different from that? We’re looking for the glimmers, but in the beginning, we can say a moment that doesn’t feel like that, that isn’t so intensely mired in suffering. A little bit different. We’re looking at something a little different. If we think about the nervous system, when you’re in collapse, that’s the path of last resort. When you move up into anger or anxiety, you’re mobilizing. That’s a system that’s trying to come back to life.

 

As silly as it seems, we celebrate the anger, we celebrate the anxiety because it says your system is trying to move to regulation. It’s moved up the hierarchy. Sometimes appreciating, “I’ve gotten out of collapse, I’m now in mobilization, I’m on my way to a bit of regulation.” When we’re in that mobilized place, can we notice a tiny moment that feels different? That I think is where we start. We look for something different and we look for a tiny moment because usually, we’re going to find it. Once we find it, we organically want to look for more.

The treasure hunt I’m hearing you say. For this individual, it might be a glimmer of something a co-worker said. It could be an internal glimmer of a job that they know is well done, even if the boss isn’t being kind and mindful. It may also be glimmers from friendships. It may be glimmers in their home environment. What I hear you saying is neurobiologically, as this individual wires their brain to seeing and noticing more glimmers, doesn’t have to be 25 glimmers a day. There’s no pull there. One glimmer. I love this. For me, every time I use this certain oil, my brain goes, “It’s so good.”

There you go.

When I’m harvesting lavender or anything like that, my brain’s going, “Glimmer, glimmer, glimmer.” I think if we notice real life, that perhaps they drive to work, or maybe they walk to work, and there’s a park where they can notice flowers or it might be a bird singing. Maybe all of this in time will allow this individual to even eventually seek a different work environment.

That is the other thing. When we look around and we can feel all the cues of danger that are coming at us all the time from people, from the environment, then we begin to assess what our system needs at this moment. What is it saying? This would help. Sometimes it is. Can I get out of this environment? Can I find a different job? This listener might be able to look at her boss and see that the person is very dysregulated. That person is not in a state of regulation, likely because of the behaviors they are using. We begin to see through the lens of the nervous system, and it takes some of the story away and we can see the state instead, and that often helps as well.

I know we’re somewhat oversimplifying it for our listener, but there is a lot of truth here that if you’re in a negative environment, whether it’s a working relationship, romantic relationship, a friendship, family environment, or whatever it is if you’re in a state of collapse, you’re likely going to keep taking it.

You were saying that in a collapse and remembering that you’re not choosing that. Your biology is choosing it in service of your safety.

These are not choices. This is not the prefrontal cortex making choices for us at all and realizing that the power of glimmers is in being able to see them as breathing fresh life like oxygen. You’re feeling immobilized, I’ve been there. I’ve been in that place where it’s like, “How can I do one more day?” You have glimmers, whether they’re people in your life or a purpose. It’s something that allows you then. I love how you focused on anger and anxiety can be well used to mobilize us.

It’s not about using anger to harm anyone or anxiety to harm yourself but realizing, “This means my blood is coursing in my veins and I can use this energy.” I’m imagining the listener saying, “I’m not appreciated here. I’m going to get a little bit angry about this and I’m going to channel that anger or that sense of being angry into finding a different job.” They might not get there very quickly. Using the power of glimmers to create resilience. I can see this individual getting to a stage where they can then channel it into like, “I’m not going to let it hold me back. I’m going to let it push me forward.” Somebody who’s a hard worker and a dedicated employee, there are a lot of appreciative bosses out there.

One little glimmer cannot change your life. It is glimmer after glimmer after glimmer. It is the tiny micro-moments that join together and change your biology. Share on X

I sometimes think it sounds naive to think about glimmers changing. Things are as intentional as the listener’s question. We know from the science that a glimmer comes in and you feel it. That’s not one-and-done. Another one comes in and another, and they begin to accumulate, and they begin to give you more access to the ventral. They change the shape of your nervous system so that you have more access to the ventral. Even though it may feel to this listener and other people out there that this is ridiculous. One little glimmer is not going to change my life. It’s not one little glimmer. It’s glimmer after glimmer after glimmer, and it’s tiny micro-moments that join together and change your biology. That I think is the power and the promise of glimmers.

Beautifully said. If you’re still doubting, think of a time when you were sad, forlorn, well-begone, or anything and somebody smiled at you or somebody hugged you or you were upset with your partner or somebody in your family and they came in and they say, “I’m sorry,” and kiss you. Those are all glimmers and those have the power to change your day, the situation, your energy. We can see by having a practice of glimmers, noticing them harnessing them, and embracing them, absolutely changes. It creates more joy. As you wisely say, it does not eliminate life’s suffering. It does not eliminate the challenges. It does make us better able to withstand them.

You are amazing. I am so blessed that we had you with us. Hold it up one more time. The Glimmers Journal by Deb Dana. She’s such a wonderful human being and has given so much to the field of psychology, trauma in particular, and complex trauma. Thank you. Where can our listeners find you, Deb?

My website is where they can find me and please come visit RhythmOfRegulation.com and we’re putting up a glimmers page. I’m going to invite people to share their glimmers. This dream of creating a global glimmer community where everybody can enjoy each other’s glimmers. Come and explore with us.

Thank you. Thank you for being a giant-sized glimmer in my day. I’m so grateful. Thank you everyone for joining us and for being a glimmer in my life. This is Imperfect Love.

 

Important Links

• Deb Dana’s Website
• The Glimmers Journal
• Stephen Porges
• Polyvagal Institute
• Frontiers – Article on Vagus Nerve
• Deb Dana on YouTube on Polyvagal Theory Made Simple 
• NAMI Helpline
• Dr. Carla Manly’s Website
• Dr. Carla Manly on Instagram
• Dr. Carla Manly on Twitter
• Dr. Carla Manly on Facebook
• Dr. Carla Manly on LinkedIn
• Dr. Carla Manly on YouTube
• Dr. Carla Manly on TikTok

 

About Deb Dana, LCSW

Deb Dana, LCSW, is a clinician, consultant, author, and international lecturer on polyvagal theory-informed work with trauma survivors and is the leading translator of this scientific work to the public and mental health professionals. A founding member of the Polyvagal Institute, Deb developed the signature Rhythm of Regulation® Clinical Training Series: The Science of Feeling Safe Enough To Fall in Love with Life and Take the Risks of Living. Specializing in working with complex trauma, Deb Dana is widely credited with adapting Polyvagal Theory to trauma treatment. She is a clinical advisor to Khiron Clinics and an advisor to Unyte-ILS. She is trained in Internal Family Systems, Sensorimotor Psychotherapy, and Tapas Acupressure Technique, and she completed the Certificate Program in Traumatic Stress Studies at the Trauma Center. Deb’s work shows how an understanding of Polyvagal Theory is applicable across the board to relationships, mental health, and trauma. She is the author of “Glimmers Journal” (W.W. Norton / March 2025).

Origin Story: Out of Stephen Porges’s brilliant work developing Polyvagal Theory in the 70s, a worldwide community of Polyvagal-guided people and systems have developed as we better understand the power of the autonomic nervous system to guide our movements and shape our stories. Through a Polyvagal lens, we understand that actions are automatic and adaptive, generated by the autonomic nervous system well below the level of conscious awareness. This is not the brain making a cognitive choice, these are autonomic energies moving in patterns of protection. And with this new awareness, the door opens to compassion. Deb Dana is a co-founder of The Polyvagal Institute with Stephen Porges. In 2018 they co-authored Clinical Applications of the Polyvagal Theory: The Emergence of Polyvagal-Informed Therapies (Norton, 2018).