We never expect—much less want—to find ourselves caught up in abusive relationships or toxic dynamics such as trauma bonding or gaslighting. In fact, traumatic bonding, which involves abusive power and control coupled with cycles of intermittent reward and punishment, can create or worsen serious mental health issues including anxiety, depression, and bipolar disorder. Sadly, many of those affected—largely women—become stuck in abusive relationships due to low self-worth, shame, and deep fears of stigmatization. 

Today, we’re joined by trauma expert and former wife of The Wolf of Wall Street, Dr. Nadine Macaluso, who will be sharing her vast expertise on destructive relationships, narcissistic abuse, coercive control, and other emotionally manipulative behaviors. As Dr. Nadine notes, “In abusive relationships, we often forfeit the self for the sake of the relationship identity.” Listener discretion is advised as this episode contains sensitive information related to trauma, abusive relationships, and abusive dynamics.

Note: If you or someone you know needs immediate support, please call your emergency services. In the US, 24/7 help is available by calling “911,” “988” (Suicide and Crisis Hotline), or SAMSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration) at 1-800-662-HELP (4357). 

 

Get the help you need:

https://mentalhealthhotline.org/ptsd-hotline/

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/post-traumatic-stress-disorder-ptsd

https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/988 

 

Books by Dr. Carla Manly:

Joy from Fear: https://www.amazon.com/Joy-Fear-Carla-Marie-Manly/dp/1641701218

Date Smart: https://www.amazon.com/Date-Smart-Transform-Relationships-Fearlessly/dp/1641704675

Aging Joyfully: https://www.amazon.com/Aging-Joyfully-Optimal-Relationships-Fulfillment/dp/1641701412

The Joy of Imperfect Love: https://www.amazon.com/Joy-Imperfect-Love-Creating-Relationships/dp/1641709057

 

Oracle decks by Dr. Carla Manly:

Etsy: https://www.etsy.com/listing/1757477615/imperfect-love-reflection-oracle-cards

Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Imperfect-Love-Reflection-Oracle-Cards/dp/B0D1Z5M4YK

 

Connect with Dr. Carla Manly:

Website: https://www.drcarlamanly.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drcarlamanly/

Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/drcarlamanly/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drcarlamanly

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carla-marie-manly-8682362b/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@dr.carlamariemanly8543

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dr_carla_manly

 

Book by Dr. Nadine Macaluso:

Joy from Fear: https://www.amazon.com/Joy-Fear-Carla-Marie-Manly/dp/1641701218

Date Smart: https://www.amazon.com/Date-Smart-Transform-Relationships-Fearlessly/dp/1641704675

Aging Joyfully: https://www.amazon.com/Aging-Joyfully-Optimal-Relationships-Fulfillment/dp/1641701412

The Joy of Imperfect Love: https://www.amazon.com/Joy-Imperfect-Love-Creating-Relationships/dp/1641709057

 

Oracle decks by Dr. Carla Manly:

Etsy: https://www.etsy.com/listing/1757477615/imperfect-love-reflection-oracle-cards

Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Imperfect-Love-Reflection-Oracle-Cards/dp/B0D1Z5M4YK

 

Connect with Dr. Nadine Macaluso:

Website: https://drnae.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/therealdrnadine/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/therealdrnadine/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@drnaelmft

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the episode here

Healing From Traumatic Bonding, Gaslighting, and Abuse With Expert Dr. Nadine Macaluso

You Deserve To Escape And Heal From Emotional Manipulation And Abuse!

Introduction

We never expect, much less want, to find ourselves caught up in abusive relationships or toxic dynamics such as trauma bonding or gaslighting. In fact, traumatic bonding, which involves abusive power and control coupled with cycles of intermittent reward and punishment, can create or worsen serious mental health issues, including anxiety, depression, and bipolar disorder.

Sadly, many of those affected, largely women, become stuck in abusive relationships due to many issues, including low self-worth, shame, and deep fears of stigmatization. We’re joined by trauma expert and former wife of the Wolf of Wall Street, Dr. Nadine Macaluso, who will be sharing her expertise on abusive relationships and emotionally manipulative behavior.

For this episode, we’ll focus on this audience’s real-life question, “I’m a smart, successful woman, and never thought I’d be reaching out for support about abuse. Everyone thinks I’ve got a great life, but I’m embarrassed to confess that my partner of five years has gotten really abusive. I feel stupid because I didn’t see it at first, but now, I can’t ignore it. Everyone loves him because he’s charming, but he’s toxic behind closed doors. If people knew, it would affect both our careers and our friendships. Can you help me?” With that question as the focus of this episode, this is the show. Please note as this episode contains sensitive information, audience discretion is advised.

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I am joined by a fabulous special guest, Dr. Nadine Macaluso, who will share her expertise on abusive relationships, trauma, and emotionally manipulative behavior. Dr. Nadine is the author of the book, Run Like Hell: A Therapist’s Guide to Recognizing, Escaping, and Healing from Trauma Bonds. Welcome to the show, Dr. Nadine. How are you?

I’m good. Thank you so much for having me.

It’s such a pleasure to have you. Before we launch into this very poignant question, could you tell our audience a little bit about what makes you you?

What makes me is that I am obsessed with love. I’m obsessed with healthy love, unhealthy love, imperfect love, and lovable types between lovers, parents, and children. I believe that life is all about connection and that’s what makes life worth living. That’s why I’ve made it my life’s mission to understand it in the way that I have come to understand it.

Thank you so much for that very precious introduction. You and I are aligned in that respect that there’s something about love. Without love, what do we really have in life? Yet, there are all forms of love. There are some types of so-called love that pose as love that aren’t love but we are told are love. We have a lot to talk about.

Abusive Relationships

Let’s first look at the reader’s question. What do you make of that? We can get into dissecting it and using it as a platform to help that individual but also help all of our readers understand what traumatic bonding is and what abusive relationships look like. Many times, people are in relationships and they don’t realize they’re abusive or they’re like our dear reader, which is not an uncommon concern that I get.

Somebody gets into a relationship and whether it’s weeks, months, years after the wedding ring is on, or whenever it is, the abuser either doesn’t show their behavior early enough or the other individual, the partner, doesn’t realize that it’s abuse even when it is. They don’t see the red flags or a combination of both. What are your thoughts on the question of the day?

The question of the day is the whole reason why I wrote my book. What had happened when I first opened up my private practice was I was really not specializing in anything. I wanted to treat anxiety, depression, personality disorders, and mood disorders and do couples work, but what was happening was that all these smart, kind, beautiful, and amazing women were coming into my office trauma bonded.

As the reader’s question states, they’re confused. They don’t know that they’re trauma-bonded. They have a feeling about it, but since it’s not physical abuse and it’s more coercive control and psychological manipulation, they know something’s wrong but they can’t put their finger on it. They feel so ashamed and embarrassed. They don’t want to share it with their friends. Hence, that is why they come to therapy or they came to therapy and they still continue to come to me. They’re like, “Something’s wrong but I don’t know exactly what it is. I’m ashamed because I should have known better.”

Thank you for starting the interview with such eloquence on that topic because you captured what the question of the day calls embarrassment. Indeed, it may be an embarrassment, but you are getting to that important piece of shame. Embarrassment is, “I tripped. I have a spot on my dress, and I’m out in public.” That tends to be an embarrassment. It’s like, “I made a social error.” Shame is, “I am bad. I am not worthy. I made bad decisions. There is something wrong with me.” Thank you for pointing that out. It’s a perfect way to start looking at this that that’s what often the abuser does.

That’s right. As the reader stated, she’s a high-functioning person. How is this happening to her? It’s even more confusing when the other partner, the perpetrator, is charming. Everybody thinks that the partner’s fabulous, but meanwhile, as she states, behind closed doors, she’s getting emotionally abused, probably coercively controlled, and manipulated. You can feel very alone in that.

That is a big part of the perpetrator’s goal, which is to foster a sense of isolation by taking away friends and pushing people out. If there are family members, they’re creating rifts with family members so that the person who is being coercively controlled is more alone. That sets the stage for those little doses of positive reinforcement. It’s those little I love yous, a present, a trip, or whatever it is that keeps the person engaged because then, it makes them second guess, “He can’t be all bad because he is giving me all of these little things. I must be focusing on the negative.”

In fact, the perpetrator will often bring that out and say, “Everybody at work loves me. All my employees love me. All my coworkers love me. All my golf buddies love me. It’s got to be you because everyone in the external world loves me. Why wouldn’t they?” Research shows us that most perpetrators are male, but we know that abuse can occur in any sort of relationship. It occurs across all genders and all types of relationships, but we do see a lot of male to female where the perpetrator is a male. Would you agree?

Yes. That’s what the research shows. That’s what enters into my clinical room more. I acknowledge that it can cross all genders and all different sexual orientations, but it usually is male to female. When you think about it, it makes sense because we do live in a patriarchy. A lot of times, this pathological lover, as I like to call them, feels entitled. That can happen a lot in the patriarchy because it’s about a hierarchy. A lot of times, these pathological lovers feel entitled. They feel superior and lack a moral compass. That’s, a lot of times, what’s perpetuating this very toxic behavior towards somebody they supposedly “love”.

In my fourth book, I talk about pseudo-love. I would imagine you agree with this because we’re very aligned here. Love is action. If we say to someone, “I love you,” yet we are verbally, physically, spiritually, or financially abusing them, we are not loving them. Love is an action word. If we love someone, we are doing things that help them be their best selves. We are supporting them. We are holding them accountable if we need to. We are engaging in healthy conversation.

Yet, so much in our society, and in many societies, passes as love when it is actually abuse. If the other person is saying, “This hurts me,” that sarcastic comment doesn’t feel good. You making fun of the size of my rear end, you making fun of my work product, you attacking me for my cooking not being perfect, or you constantly working to erode my sense of self-efficacy is all emotional abuse.

Let me ask you a few questions to help make sure our audience has some of the terminology and also to flesh out some of the key concepts you’re already throwing out. You talk about the entitled individual who feels superior and who doesn’t have a moral compass or at least a properly developed moral compass.

We do live in a world where there’s a lot of patriarchy and a lot of misogyny. What would you encourage individuals, regardless of gender, to be on the lookout for? Whether they’re dating or they’re already in a romantic relationship, what are some of those key red flags? With our reader’s question or anyone, and there are many people out there where this reader’s question will resonate, what are some of the red flags when you talk about that sense of entitlement? Go, please. 

When you’re in this sort of relationship, you’re not allowed to have boundaries. You will see that a pathological lover will plow through your boundaries because it’s all about what they want. Another sign is that you can’t have any needs because it’s always about them. As time goes on, what you’ll notice is that words don’t match actions. They say they’re going to do something but then, they never show up and do it. If you go on a first date and you get on that date, and that person says all their exes are crazy, there might be a reason why all their exes are crazy. It might be because they made them crazy. 

I agree. Sometimes, it’s the way maybe the exes were saying. The exes were saying, “There’s something wrong here. You are abusive. You are negative. You are sarcastic. You are critical.” This very me-oriented individual is going to say, “You are the problem,” and projects all of that individual’s issues and says they’re all crazy. In fact, I imagine if you got those women in a room, not that they’ll be perfect, mind you, because none of us are perfect, they might have some common agreements about how that individual was very abusive.

Boundaries

You talk about boundaries. You talk about that me orientation. You talk about how you’re not able to have any needs and the words don’t match the actions. I agree with all of those. Let’s take those and really look at them. I’m a big fan of boundaries. Many of the people in my practice, as probably in yours, are like, “We can’t have boundaries if we didn’t grow up with boundaries because we don’t know what boundaries are. Maybe we might have overly rigid boundaries or overly porous boundaries.” Could you talk a little bit about what healthy boundaries look like?

Healthy boundaries are about understanding, first of all, what you need and what your values are. It’s being able to connect to your authentic self and being able to express that to a person in a very serious way like, “This is what I will accept. This is what I won’t accept. This is a deal breaker,” and then not holding that boundary against them but you’re enforcing your own boundary. In a trauma bond, it’s really difficult to do that because this person will use, harm, exploit, and betray anyone to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status. What you need, what you value, and what you want, cannot interfere with what they need.

That’s very well put. This takes us both on how we can prevent ourselves from getting into these relationships but also how if you are in one, you can baby-step your way toward finding yourself again. That’s what happens in these trauma-bonded relationships, sometimes called traumatic bonding. You lose that sense of self, which is what the abuser wants. They want you off kilter. They want you to second-guess yourself. If the reader wants to stay in the relationship, what can she start doing? I love how you’re talking about boundaries. It’s diving inward to see, “What are my values? What are my needs?” and then starting to voice those.

When you’re in this sort of relationship, you’re so focused on the other because you have to be. If you want to stay in the relationship and try to hold your sense of self, it’s very important that you turn the mirror back towards yourself, stay interested in yourself, and do things outside the relationship to keep your confidence up, whether it’s working, having a hobby, or making your own money.

You often have to forfeit yourself to keep the couple’s identity, but if you can foster confidence, relationships, or work outside of the relationship, that also will keep you tethered to yourself. Often, they say, “Quit your job. Don’t worry about it,” or, “Don’t see that friend,” or, “Do you really need to go sing in choir?” They’re often trying to block you from living in the real world without them. That’s something that you have to do to maintain a sense of self within the relationship.

If you can foster confidence, build relationships, or pursue work outside of the relationship, that will keep you tethered to yourself. Share on X

I appreciate that you brought that up to put on our to-do list for all of our audience. If you are choosing to stay in that relationship, whether permanently or temporarily, and I love how you used the word tether, tether yourself, which the abuser may not like. Keep your friends. It might mean that you go visit the friends instead of bringing the friends home. Keep your family members. It might mean going solo to see the family members. Keep your hobbies. If you’ve lost your hobbies, find your hobbies. Do your walks, your hikes, your painting class, or whatever it is. Find ways to tether yourself outside the relationship.

I really appreciate how you brought the part up about how you forfeit yourself to have the identity of the relationship. The cure here is to find the self again if you lost that self. It sounds very much like the reader’s, like, “We look like this great couple on the outside, but what can I do?” Part of that is to find yourself. Find your identity again and focus on yourself.

It’s interesting because part of the trauma response is that hyperfocus on the other. It’s partly because you’re afraid of the other, so you have to constantly monitor the other for the next lie, the next manipulation, or the next time the rug is pulled out from under you. Part of it is necessary, but the other part that you’re saying is to have that radar that’s serving you but also start finding yourself again in that way where you’re not constantly in that fearful place within that relationship. Did I get that right?

Perfectly. You do walk on eggshells when you’re living like that. A lot of times, it’s due to fear because they can be very dominating, threatening, and intimidating.

What’s really interesting is I’ve noticed that sometimes the abusers will turn on their partner and say, “You’re not walking on eggshells. I’m the one who’s walking on eggshells around you.” They do the gaslighting. That makes it so confusing for the individual, which is the nature of gaslighting. It makes the individual feel as if their perceptions are completely inaccurate.

That’s another great sign to see if you were a pathological person. They will always be the victim.

They always make it about them.

Everybody’s always hurting them. Everything’s always happening to them. Even though they’re perpetrating abuse towards you, they turn it. They’re like, “You are the one that’s doing that to me,” and then you’re like, “Am I? No.” They victim signal. There’s a term for it. It’s called victim signaling. They do it not just to their lover but to everybody because that also preys on our empathy. If we were an empathetic person, they got us hooked.

What’s interesting is I’ve noticed that many of them don’t even need to do it in the outside world because they are putting out that charismatic self. A lot of that negativity tends to get projected behind closed doors because they’re so busy putting on the nice guy to the external world. Let’s go back for a minute to boundaries and look at finding that sense of self again so that you can create those boundaries and say, “I’m happy to make dinner,” or, “I’m happy to do this with you or that with you but I have my boundaries here. I am not willing to do this. I am not going to do that. I am not going to accept being treated like this.” That can be pretty scary when there’s an abusive person on the other side.

Learn to practice those boundaries, even if you practice them with friends. Maybe you can find a trusted friend or a therapist where you can let them know what’s going on and start practicing standing up for yourself again. For a woman who finds herself strong in the workforce like our reader here or strong in the external world, that might be hard. It sounds like it’s really hard for the individual who wrote in to say, “I’ve lost this inner strength. Now, it’s a puppet show.”

It can be hard. I always say, “Look for the helpers,” as Mr. Rogers told us. Some people are too young to know who he is. You’d be surprised once you start to talk about it with a friend, somebody at work, a relative, or a therapist, you will see how many people are experiencing similar things. You can share in a way that you feel comfortable so you don’t feel so isolated. Since they are gaslighting you and wiping out your perspective, it’s good to talk to someone to regain perspective because then, you start to see it through their lens.

It's good to talk to someone to regain perspective because then you start to see things through their lens. Share on X

That’s a part that is so helpful that I’ve seen in women’s support groups or domestic violence support groups where you’re looking at a room of people and seeing across all walks of life. You see doctors, attorneys, firefighters, stay-at-home moms, artists, and cashiers. Across all sectors, there are women who have found themselves in abusive relationships.

It doesn’t make any one of them bad, stupid, or incompetent. It makes them women who were either programmed from early childhood forward to fall in love and find abusers normal and that behavior acceptable or people who fell in love with someone who’s so good at being charismatic and manipulative that they don’t show it. They can carry that on like they do in the work world for years at a time until it doesn’t serve them.

I don’t know in your practice, but in mine, I found that once a wedding ring is on or once somebody has moved in, they’ll do whatever they need to get their needs met. If their need is to have someone on their arm to go on trips with, do the housework, make the house not feel so lonely, or somebody to beat up on, they will keep that pretty smiling face on or that handsome smiling face until they get what they want and then all bets are off. Is that your experience?

Yes. It’s my experience, unfortunately. You bring up a good point in that it’s everyone and anyone. That’s another reason to not feel so much shame and embarrassment because abuse is always the fault of the abuser. That’s one of the reasons I wrote my book. It was because I was so sick of all the stigma around the victim. Instead of saying, “Why does she stay?” Why do they do that?

Not much in life makes me get pretty angry, but that does make me angry, that statement that people will make like, “It’s your fault for staying,” or, “It’s not the abuser’s fault. It’s your fault for staying,” or, “How did you get into that?” or for the abuser to say, “You picked me. What’s wrong with you?” In a world where we all know that love works, love breeds love, and love breeds good health physically and mentally, there is no excuse for anyone to be abusive. Pre-internet, maybe there wasn’t enough information to know. I’m almost saying that tongue-in-cheek because we always know. We know innately when we are harming someone. When somebody’s crying or looking at us with such pain in their eyes, we know when we’re causing harm.

I agree with you. I echo that the abuse is always the fault of the abuser and never the fault of the abused. The abused may need help in gaining reality and getting resources. There are times when people stay in abusive situations because they’re afraid of being a failure to their friends or their family. They’re afraid of their career being harmed. They’re afraid that they don’t have anywhere to go. They might not have the money ready to go get an apartment. They might be afraid of losing all sorts of things because society will stigmatize someone who stands up and says, “I’m in an abusive relationship. Please help me get out.”

That’s right. Also, earlier, you mentioned the intermittent reinforcement. What I say is that hope is the hook because 70% of the time, they’re cruel, controlling, and abusive, but 30% of the time, they’re caring, generous, and helpful. That 30% of the time keeps the person so hopeful, like, “Maybe they’ll go back to the beginning. Maybe they’ll be nice again.” They keep hoping for that to happen. That intermittent reinforcement causes so much confusion. 

That’s a piece that people might not realize. I’ll pause there for a minute. Intermittent reinforcement is why gambling in casinos is so addictive. It’s because you don’t know when you’re going to get the payoff. Researchers have long known it’s why you get your paycheck once a week if you’re employed or once every other week. It’s reinforcement on a schedule. You know when it’s coming.

For intermittent reinforcement, which is unscheduled reinforcement, you never know. You don’t know when those flowers are going to arrive. You don’t know when the hug is coming. You don’t know when that surprise, “Honey, let me make you a nice dinner,” or, “You’re the best ever in the world. I love you so much,” is going to happen. That’s what keeps you staying. It’s not because you’re broken or you’re stupid but because you are human and imperfect. You, like every other human on the planet on some level, can get hooked on reinforcement because it works.

It works. It’s not a cycle of abuse like people talk about. You never know when the abuse is coming. You never know when the kindness is coming. It keeps you stuck in the middle. It keeps you trapped. That’s the glue of the trauma bond. 

For someone who’s never experienced it or worked with it, it might sound so unbelievable. People might be like, “The person has abused you once, so leave.” What you’re talking about is the hook of hope. That is so natural and so atavistic. As humans, we have to be wired for hope. We think of our ancestors and they’re out looking for food, berries, or a place to sleep. We are wired to be able to deal with periods where we have adverse circumstances but we go forward. We move forward because of hope. We know we will find those berry bushes. We know we will find that stream that has some fish in it. We know we will find that shelter. That’s my own theory on it looking at it historically or evolutionarily that we do get hooked in because we’re wired to get hooked in.

You combine that with love, a family, finances, extended family being close, and holidays if you’re married. There are so many different layers to it. We see why it’s so hard for somebody to extract themselves from it. Yet, it can be done.

A piece back to supportive friends and supportive and trusted family, and I will emphasize the word trust, reach out to people that you know who can trust you rather than turn on you. That only worsens everything that’s going on underneath on a mental health and negative physical health level. There are many free support groups across the nation and around the world for women who are experiencing abuse.

We tend to think of abuse as being physical abuse. Many people who have been in abusive relationships will say, and I’m never saying that physical abuse is okay or is not hurtful, that emotional abuse can be so much more difficult because you don’t have that black and blue mark to show the doctor, the best friend, and the family members seeing Mr. Nice Guy all the time. When you are showing up and saying, “I’m hurting. He’s awful to me,” you are even afraid to voice it because everybody thinks, “You’re being sarcastic. You’re negative. Toughen up.”

It also might be, “It takes two to tango. What’s your part in it?” It’s’ not that we all don’t have things that we need to look at. None of us are perfect. When one person is the dominant, intimidating perpetrator in a relationship, they have all the power.

When one person is the dominant intimidating perpetrator in a relationship, they have all the power. Share on X

That takes us to the piece you were talking about, the entitlement. In our society, no matter how hard-working women are, men still have so much of the power and so much of the financial resources. Even if financial resources aren’t an issue, which they are for many people, it is really hard to leave that relative safety. I’m emphasizing relative safety because it’s what you know. That’s the devil you know versus the devil you don’t know.

That external world feels so unsafe because you’re afraid of the stigma. You might have financial concerns. You might be afraid that people will look at you and say, “It must have been you. You’ve got to be the problem.” There are all sorts of reasons that it can be hard for anyone. I’m emphasizing that because research shows us that every 3rd person who crosses your path on the street, every 3rd person you count, or the 3 people you count in the grocery store, shopping mall, or wherever you are, 1 of those 3 is a victim of some form of emotional abuse.

Unbelievable. 

That’s what’s reported. Those are the people who are not calling in or who look and say, “It’s okay. He’s being funny.” Those are the people who still believe that they’re too soft-skinned, that they’re not tough enough, and that it’s their problem. If you start looking at those reported statistics, we know that what’s reported is there’s often a whole lot more. For domestic violence, it’s 1 in 4. That’s what’s reported.

We know that in our world, which can be very aggressive and violent, men still are able to get away with far too much under the guise of, “It was a joke,” or, “You didn’t say no loudly enough,” or, “You are staying because I have the money, but you can leave.” The other person is saying, “What do I do? Do I go live on the street?”

Narcissism In Abusive Relationships

Let’s leave that for a while. You talked about the me orientation. Without getting into saying that everybody who is abusive is narcissistic or is diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. We don’t have to go there because narcissism occurs on a continuum. Way at the one end is NPD, Narcissistic Personality Disorder. From what I’m hearing you say with the me orientation, which is one of our red flags, would you say that there’s a pretty strong thread of narcissism in the individuals who you see are the perpetrators?

Yes. I would say that there’s a thread of narcissism. I am similar. I have that pet peeve of everybody throwing around the word narcissism. I use the term pathological lover because I believe that anybody who will use, exploit, and harm the person that they love is pathological. Pathological simply means mentally unwell. This person is very selfish. Often, they are self-absorbed.

Also, a Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a Cluster B. They’re very dramatic and erratic, those personality disorders, because they might have a little mix of antisocial personality and a little mix of borderline. That’s why relationships with them, aside from them being self-absorbed, feel dramatic and erratic. The person usually has a lot more going on than just narcissism. They can have substance addiction. They can have compulsive process disorders like gambling and sex. They’re highly impulsive. They can have a mood disorder. They can have some psychopathy mixed in there. That’s another reason why it’s hard to figure them out because they’re often complicated people. 

In fact, going straight to NPD for a minute, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, or bipolar, many clinicians steer clear of both of those disorders because they are so complex. You’re working sometimes that feels like ten people in the room at once rather than 1 individual who has some issues to work with. That’s the really interesting part. They can be highly successful in the external world. Yet, on the inside, there are so many pieces.

That’s why I appreciate you saying, “It could be some of this. It could be some borderline. It could be some mood disorders.” You captured it very well in the erratic and the dramatic. The dramatic is often what makes them charismatic to the external world because they can be funny, light, and articulate when they’re talking their talk. It’s the erratic piece that sometimes shows in the external world but very much in the internal world. As part of that erraticness, they have 2 sets of standards, 1 standard for you and 1 standard for them.

I’ll never forget. I read Lundy Bancroft’s book, Why Does He Do That? When he said, “Double standards are abusive,” I was like, “That’s it. That’s why double standards bug me. It’s because they’re abusive.” That was such an eye-opening moment for me. I’ll never forget that. I wanted to mention one more thing too. They’re very Machiavellian. They’re manipulative. I want to share this with the audience. Women who are trying or anybody who is trying to leave the trauma bond, I say to them that unfortunately, the kind part was often manipulative. They think they’re dealing with two people, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. When they realize that it was all a manipulation for the pathological person to get what they wanted, it starts to dissolve the confusion a bit.

Thank you for highlighting that because I agree. Often, especially in the love bombing phase of the relationship or getting somebody into the relationship, once all of that kindness that you think is that individual through and through and you said, “He was so kind. He was so sweet. He did this with me. He did that with me,” and all of that, they later realize, “That wasn’t true kindness. That was part of the ploy. It was part of the game. It was part of the manipulation.” That is why when it gets into the relationship, they let little pieces of that kindness show up as a reminder to the individual, “The nice guy is still here. The nice person is still here,” which keeps the person very confused about their own footing.

For the audience, you may be thinking, “Is there any hope for this relationship?” I do want to pause and say, and then get your opinion, that in rare cases when both people are really willing to work on themselves where each partner says, “I want to be a better person. I want to grow in this relationship,” and there is that meeting of minds to grow and evolve out of these toxic dynamics, I have seen amazing change happen.

If even one of those people, generally the perpetrator, says, “I see nothing wrong with me. It is all you. It will always be you,” that is a major red flag. Looking at love as the foundation, if you’re with someone who doesn’t want to grow, change, and continue to evolve toward their best selves, which is all of us because we all have that opportunity, then that might be the major red flag that you would want to look for. It’s, “Is the person willing to go to therapy with me? Are they willing to truly invest in creating healthy habits?” Is that your experience? 

Yes. That’s my experience too. All over the internet, you’ll see, “They’ll never change.” I don’t believe that. You and I are in the business of change. We support people through change. I have seen that if the pathological partner really wants to change, and they have to want it, I’ve seen them change. 

I don’t know about you, but from my lens, it is some of the most gratifying work.

It’s the best. It’s not that often, but it really is possible. Sometimes, they will go to therapy as a trick or another manipulation, so you have to watch out for that. If you’re with a good clinician, usually, they can suss that out. If they say, “I want to change. I see that I have some of this behavior or that behavior,” then that’s great because that helps the whole world if one of those people changes at a time.

Thank you for pointing out the piece about short-term therapy as a trick to get somebody to stay or get them off track. That is an important piece. I see this with couples often when divorce is imminent. The abused individual says, “I want a divorce,” or, “I want out of here,” and the perpetrator will say, “Fine. I’ll go to counseling,” after the person’s been asking for it for 5 years or 10 years. They use it only to get the person back in and then they drop out.

Whereas for these kinds of personality issues and mental health issues that are going on behind the scenes or these dramatic types of issues or invasive patterns, often, what’s needed is couples therapy and individual therapy. It’s individual therapy for the abused person. Sometimes, group therapy is enough depending upon the individual. It’s marriage therapy or relationship therapy with somebody who is good at it and practiced at it because those abusers can pack a powerful punch. For the abuser or the perpetrator, often, it’s therapy oriented toward emotional intelligence, trauma therapy that often underlies some of these patterns for both partners or therapy to work with anger issues.

I love looking at therapy, which I don’t know about you, as an opportunity. Many people, particularly the perpetrators and often men, see therapy as a burden. They’re like, “It’s something I have to do. It’s something I’m being forced to do.” Therapy, which is why I do what I do, is an opportunity for us to change intergenerational patterns of violence or any negative intergenerational pattern that we inherited. Let’s say we wanted it, but we didn’t even know about it. Here, it has come down and we’re acting it out not knowing perhaps about our children, our friends, or certainly our intimate relationships.

I see therapy as such a gift to get rid of patterns where else in life. Even in the business world, do we want to have patterns where we’re throwing money away on practices that don’t work where we’re losing? You think of all the retail. Are they going to get rid of negative practices so they can thrive? They are. Why wouldn’t we want to give that same gift to ourselves?

That’s the truth. I love how you say that because when we do experience developmental trauma as a child, we don’t have a choice. As adults, we do have a choice. That’s the beautiful part, that we can go to therapy and not carry the transgenerational trauma. I had my daughter over who turned 31 with her baby. She’s a therapist. To see how beautiful her family is and the impact of me being in therapy for 25 years and being a therapist, it’s like, “We did it.”

When we experience developmental trauma as a child, we have no choice, but as adults, we do have a choice. Share on X

That’s one of the most beautiful things. It’s when you look and say, “The work I did, I’m so proud of that work.” One of the reasons I get so excited when somebody starts transforming out of those patterns is that that individual, regardless of gender, is a role model in more ways than they realize. When they’re treating their partner with respect, people are paying attention. When they’re treating that partner with disrespect, people are paying attention. Wherever you walk on this planet, people are paying attention.

When we are treating people with kindness, love, and respect, we are in those actions. We are changing the external world. There are kiddos, teenagers, other wives, other husbands, and parents saying, “That’s how you treat someone.” They may not know that. Behind the closed doors of their home, they may see abuse. When we’re kind to each other behind closed doors and we walk our talk of being good and charismatic indoors and outside, whatever that means to us, then we’re changing the relationship within the self and changing that partner or the children’s experience of love. That means we’ve created a home where there is a safe and healthy way of being.

As you said with your daughter, it grows exponentially because then, the kiddos are growing up with a foundation of love rather than a foundation of trauma. It’s genuine love, not this false love like, “I gave you everything. I gave you this. I gave you that, but I gave you abuse. I gave you the education. I gave you the money. I gave you this, but I abused you.” That is not love. Many people say, “My parents gave me an education. They gave me a start. They gave me food, clothing, and shelter.” I say, “Yes, but so does Alcatraz.” Alcatraz gave food, clothing, and shelter. That was their tagline. That doesn’t mean they loved you. 

I love that.

Isn’t that frightening? Some people look back at their childhood and say, “I got food, clothing, and shelter,” and I say, “Welcome to Alcatraz.” It does not mean you are loved. To love somebody is to see them, attune to them, take time for them, and hold them accountable. To me, that is a huge part of love and being in a loving relationship.

Going back to our reader’s question for the day, showing your partner love if you do love them is holding them responsible. If you see them gaslighting you, it doesn’t mean you engage with them. Don’t battle. Don’t go down that road. Say, “This is my truth. I’m walking away now. I’m taking a time-out.” It’s doing things like that. What do you think?

Correct. When my patients want to stay, I say, “You have to name what’s happening to you. If your partner’s being emotionally abusive, you have to say, “You’re being emotionally abusive. You need to stop. You’re being verbally abusive. I’m not going to tolerate it.” You name it. You’d be shocked. They stop instead of saying, “Don’t do this. This hurts me.”

What happens? I’ve seen this one where they say, “I’m not being abusive.” They start the gaslighting. They’re like, “You’re the abusive one.”

That’s where you say, “You’re gaslighting me. I’m leaving.” You name it again. You name it to tame it. That is one of the things that I have seen work. 

I love it. To the audience, that might seem very subtle, but notice what Dr. Nadine did right there. You don’t engage. You can say, “You’re being abusive,” and they can say, “I’m not. It’s you.” You can say, “You’re gaslighting me,” and they can say, “I’m not. You’re gaslighting me.” You can go down that rabbit hole for hours. Instead, you simply say, “This is not going anywhere. I see you are continuing to gaslight me. I’m going to take a time-out.”

This is one of my favorite things to tell people. Tell them to go ahead and gaslight the mirror and that you’re going to go and take a time-out. Tell them, “If you want to go and gaslight someone, go gaslight the mirror. I’m going to go and take a time-out.” That way, you are not engaging. For manipulative people and abusive people, it’s so strange because they get so much enjoyment out of creating the trauma, being abusive, and seeing that fear, that horror, or that sadness in somebody else’s eyes. It’s likely because that was what was done to them, but it’s not an excuse to be doing it. 

The Abuser’s Perspective

There are two more things that you brought up that I really want to make sure we cover before we end. You said that when you are with this type of individual, you can’t have any needs. I’m grateful that you pointed that out because I often think of this type of individual as wanting a robot in their home or a Stepford wife. They want you there to be the pretty face, to cook, to clean, or to take away the silence that they don’t like.

When it comes to your needs and you say, “I would like this,” they’d rather you go in a closet and be quiet. It’s that, “Shut up and look pretty,” kind of thing instead of saying, “This is a human being who I’ve asked to be part of my life.” The abuser is like, “Even though I’m 100% I-oriented and everything’s about what I need, here’s a person who is a human being who has a 50% or 100% say,” however you look at it. If each person has a 100% say, you can have that and then collaborate and compromise to find a middle ground. That abusive person doesn’t even want you to have 50% say. They want you to shut up. What do you think about that?

There are two things going on there. First of all, they don’t really value emotions that much. They don’t live unless it’s their own emotions. They don’t value emotions like the way you and I do. The second thing is they don’t have empathy or compassion. They’re missing that chip. When you have a need, it’s like their heart doesn’t wake up, lean in, and take care of you because they don’t have empathy. They’re like, “Whatever. This is what I want, so this is what we’re doing.”

You put it so beautifully how there is that lack of empathy. The piece about waking up the heart is so important. When they’re in that constant I state, “It’s about me,” there is that lack of empathy. The heart is dead. If you can have any empathy for this type of individual, it is that part that says, “You’re missing out on so much of life because your heart is not awake.”

That’s right. There’s no heartfulness. We talk a lot about mindfulness, but there’s no heartfulness there. 

That’s one of the downsides. Using the term narcissism for a moment and we look at the etymology of that word, it does come from the Greek tale of looking in that pond. Narcissus looked and fell in love with himself to his own demise ultimately because there’s nothing there but your own reflection. The heart was not awakened. It may feel good on one level to get everything you want, do everything you want, and whatever, but you’re missing 99% of life because it’s all about you. When it’s all about you, you’re missing, by definition, everything else and everyone else because you only want them if they’re serving a need, which brings it back to being all about you.

Thank you for that piece. Let’s talk about words not matching the actions. We’ve talked about that in bits and pieces throughout our discussion. I’m hearing you say that for this type of individual, the abuser will say, “I will do this for you. Come in. Move in with me. We’ll have this beautiful life together,” or, “Come in and we’ll raise your children as part of my own,” or, “Come on. Don’t worry. You don’t have to work a day in your life.” They end up tricking you into this or that.

All of these ways they tell you, “You’re going to be safe. Give up your apartment,” or, “Come and live with me. You’ll be safe,” or, “Give up your job,” or whatever, it is always about catching or capturing something by having a mismatch between words and what they will ultimately deliver. Is that what you are saying? 

Yeah. You use a really important word there. You used safe. If we were going to encompass it in one thing, it’s that they promise you safety and you get exactly the opposite.

That is so beautifully said and so poignant because that is the truth of it. To the audience, that is what we are wired to want and need. You look at Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Safety and security are down on the bottom. If we do not have safety and security in our relationships or our homes, so to speak, then we cannot perpetuate that safety and security in the self because we’re constantly on edge. That’s not our fault.

Takeaways

If somebody promises you safety and you believe them, it is not your fault that you believe them. It is their problem to have been so thoughtless and manipulative as to make a promise they had no intention of keeping. You have so much to offer. We have covered quite a lot of it but not all of it. Let’s wrap it up with how this is all perceived by the individual as traumatic.

The thing is that trauma is anything that overwhelms our ability to cope or anything that’s outside the realm of normalcy. This traumatic bonding is not a normal relationship. It does overwhelm us and we don’t know how to cope. That’s why we feel like we’re in a fog. Hence, it feels very traumatic.

Trauma is anything that overwhelms our ability to cope. Share on X

We don’t know the reader’s background, but if that reader came into the equation with any pre-existing trauma, this would have necessarily exacerbated that trauma. It will have intensified. Whether that individual was abused as a child or went through trauma at work, any form of trauma in life, any romantic trauma in the past, or whatever it is, this will have compounded that. It’s not because it’s the victim’s fault. It’s because that victim was coming into the relationship hoping and praying for safety because that’s what was promised.

If the individual came into the relationship securely attached and had no trauma in their past, this would have given them an experience of incredible trauma. This is the very sad part. Regardless of the situation, how the individual experiences that trauma depends on person to person. We’re all different. We will all experience it differently and process it differently. We will all need different forms of therapy or assistance to get out of it. It can take years to heal from an abusive relationship.

That is the hard part because people want it to be over quickly. The good news is recovery is possible.

One of the beautiful pieces is that it is possible for the victim and the perpetrator. When we start talking about issues like this with no shame and no blame but simply saying to the perpetrator, “You’re being less than you could be. This needs to change,” and being part of that change, we can all make the world a healthier, safer, and better place. You are fascinating. It’s such a joy to have shared time with you. Where can our audience find you? 

They can go to my website, DrNae.com. I have tons of resources and assessments on there. They can find me on Instagram, @TheRealDrNadine.

Thanks again. It has been a joy and a privilege.

Thank you so much.

To our audience, thank you so much for sharing this journey with us. As always, it is a joy and an honor. 

Important Links:

• Dr. Nadine Macaluso
• Run Like Hell: A Therapist’s Guide to Recognizing, Escaping, and Healing from Trauma Bonds
• Why Does He Do That? 
• https://DrNae.com/about-dr-nadine-macaluso/
• https://www.Instagram.com/therealdrnadine/ 
• https://www.TikTok.com/@DrNaeLMFT
• https://www.LinkedIn.com/in/TheRealDrNadine/
• https://MentalHealthHotline.org/ptsd-hotline/
• https://www.NIMH.nih.gov/health/topics/post-traumatic-stress-disorder-ptsd
• https://www.SAMHSA.gov/find-help/988

About Dr. Nadine Macaluso

After enduring marriage to the infamous “Wolf of Wall Street,” Nadine Macaluso, PhD, has made it her life’s work to help other women understand, escape, and heal from their trauma bonds with pathological partners. Nadine’s own horrific relationship inspired her to become a psychotherapist specializing in narcissistic abuse, trauma bond relationships, and complex PTSD. Her private practice quickly flooded with women recounting an all-too-familiar story of abuse with a pathological partner. In her book, “Run Like Hell (2024), Nadine brings her personal experience and years of expertise to readers, explaining the mental health of the pathological lover (PL), the traits of women who are the perfect “victims” of these PLs, how women can leave a trauma bond safely, and how these women can heal. Perhaps even more important, Nadine shows how women can be “surthrivers” of these trauma bonds and go on to have healthy, positive relationships and lives armed with knowledge and awareness. Dr. Nadine is currently an LMFT in private practice. Dr. Nae is a mother of five (and two dogs), a loving wife of 22 years, a writer, a therapist, a skin and breast cancer survivor, and a champion of abused women.